Sabbath's Technical Ectasy was a disaster.  They won't play anything off that album.  Never Say Die ('78 - Ozzy's last disc with Sabbath) is really good IMO.  Never Say Die! itself is a rather uplifting track.  The band went and found Dio and put out the classic Heaven & Hell CD - which I think is just as hard and heavy as British Steel and Maiden's debut in 80.  Kiss got sucked into the disco scene and put out Dynasty and Unmasked.  I will give Kiss points for trying to do a concept album.  I think that while Music From "The Elder" could've been a lot better, it's also where Kiss expanded their sound from Hard Rock and made their brief transition to Metal.

		ronhartsell wrote:
		In retrospect probably not, but at the time I think the term 'Acid Rock' would fit??  That's a term you don't hear much these days but was thrown around regularly at the time...again, the lines have blurred through time and I certainly can't argue (and won't) that Sabbath isn't Metal, because they are, I just don't think they started out as what I would call Metal today... ...Metal, as a genre, encompasses all forms of Metal...the Godfathers of Metal would be Sabbath as they were the influence of the Metal Gods themselves, and even though we agree that Zep is not Metal, you can hear their influence in some of Priests early music as well, but they were never Metal, whereas Sabbath, the Dio years, picked up on the musical style of Metal... ...Paranoid, Sweet Leaf, Iron Man and many others definately were the standards at the time, nothing compared to 'em...but the genre was just beginning and throughout most of the 70's Hard Rock picked up steam and that is where it stayed...then Punk made a splash and then Disco came on the scene...where was Sabbath?  Zep?  Kiss?  Maiden wasn't even born yet!!... ...Then came along a little old album called British Steel, gee, what happened next??...      Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote: Ron, do you own Black Sabbath's Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Paranoid or Sabotage CD's?  How about Black Sabbath and Master Of Reality?  These are not particularly progressive (save for certain instances), but rather they are dark, foreboding, and have a certain driving power that most bands still try emulating in the 21st century.  These are definite proof positive that Black Sabbath of the 70's belongs in the Metal category.  Good examples of Prog Rock are King Crimson, Rush, Pink Floyd and Queensryche.  Dream Theater too.  Aside from heavy riffs and such...these bands have zero in common with Judas Priest and Black Sabbath.  It's like trying to compare ZZ Top and the Allman Brothers - the only thing they have in common is that they're from the South.      ronhartsell wrote: Hey there DP...seems we pretty much agree on everything except on Sabbath, and I'm certainly not gonna tell you you're wrong!!!  Of all the bands we've been discussing here lately, Sabbath would be the one band I would give a free pass to and here's why... ...when Sabbath came out they had a sound unlike any other and for a reason well documented (fingertips cut off), if it wasn't for that (?fortunate?) accident, who knows what they would have sounded like, who cares, it happend!!...it was dark, dreary, evil sounding music, and it either scared the sh*t out of you or rocked you... but to me it's more about the lyrics for 70's Sabbath that would give them the edge over other bands, not so much what the music sounded like as compared to Metal as we've grown to know it...now Sabbath of the 80's and on are Metal, not what I would consider progressive rock, which I guess is where I put Sabbath and early Priest in, a Hard/Prog Rock category...for me, I believe it was Priest with their British Steel album to be the very first, front to back Heavy Metal album... DP, I am biased as I'm sure you're very well aware of...if anything, Priest is the band that I measure every other band against, and maybe that's not fair, but it's what works for me...      Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote: Okay, I've been listening to Hard Rock and Metal since I was 9, and I've never heard of any band called The Rods.  Can someone fill me in on who these guys were? I reckon Gary Moore to be an excellent blues-rock guitarist who was very influencial for a lot of the 80's guitar heroes.  I think someone else pointed that out. Ron, if you listen to Black Sabbath's first two CD's...Black Sabbath & Paranoid, don't you think those 2 discs instantly DEFINE Sabbath as a Metal band?  I agree with your sentiment that Priest started out as Rock but transcended to Metal.  I think that change took place with Sad Wings Of Destiny.  Zep never was Metal and should not be considered as such.  What has Led Zeppelin sung that was ever Metal?  The answer: Nothing!  Kiss isn't Metal either, though they have made Metal discs (some Heavy Metal, some Pop/Glam Metal), but they are basically a Hard Rock band.  There is a fine but distinct line in the sand between Hard Rock and Metal.  The evidence of that is rather plain to see I think. Edited at: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:19:16 AM

If you wish to put them in 'Hard Rock' than that is your wish but I've said it before and I'll say it yet again that I for one fail to see the difference. Back in the 1970's and 80's, Black Sabbath was, just like nowadays, a Heavy Metal band, yet they were originally called just HARD ROCK.

So in the simplest of terms Hard Rock IS Metal, it may not be Heavy, Death, Speed, Viking, Folk, Pain, Thrash, Brutal, Black or any other bastardized sub-genre or shoot off, but it IS most definately METAL .

Besides, how can ANYONE say this is NOT Metal?

Listen to around 2:22, and name me one guitarist who was playing those type of solos in 1972?
If you cannot hear 'Eruption', 'D.O.A.', 'Hell Bent For Leather', 'Call For The Priest', 'Symptom Of The Universe', 'For The Love Of God', 'Ice 9', 'Mr. Crowley' in that(just to name a few), or at least where the influence came from. Then you need an enormous crash course on a history lesson.

		ronhartsell wrote:
		Very well put...but I personally put Triumph in the Hard Rock category rather than Metal!!      Luvers666 wrote:   I think it is sad that only a totalof six mentions of Rik Emmett was done on all 27 pages of this topic. I began listening to Triumph and Judas Priest the same year, 1978, and they both are tied on several things. But in terms of ability and influence, rather directly or indirectly, no Metal guitarist is better than Mr. Rik Emmett. All kinds of guitar players you all mentioned have claimed to be influenced by the man, for instance: Steve Vai - Started playing eclectic guitar because of Rik Emmett Joe Satriani - Started playing guitar period because of Rik Emmett Eddie Van Halen - Admitted taking the ideas that are featured on Eruption and Mean Street after watching Rik Emmett(Triumph) play a gig in Canada in 1975, when Van Halen was still called Mammoth Glenn Tipton - Wrote the Hell Bent For Leather and Call For The Priest solo after listening to Rock And Roll Machine Dave Murray - Decided to take the punk sounding guitars used by Rik Emmett on Triumph's first two albums, one being Rock And Roll Machine Randy Rhoads - Found a love for Classical because of Rik Emmett, his two favorite classical pieces are: El Duende Agonizante and Fantasy Serenade. In 1972 Rik Emmett was in a band called Act III, which was the first time an audience ever got to hear the song Blinding Light Show, which features both shredding on a 12 string classical and 12-string electric, without a break. And the following year Tony Iommi and Black Sabbath recorded Spiral Architect which throughout the song features the same exact rhythm section. Triumph was the first metal band to ever feature Jazz, Classical, Bluegrass, Waltz, Spanish Flamenco techniques or complete songs. Not to mention their ability to pend songs that were commercial yet heavy, makes them either the inventors or the biggest influence on starting the Glam Metal scene, which rather you like it or not, was a good and lucrative sub genre of Heavy Metal. They were also the first to write a Speed Metal song(Street Fighter Man) while the first to ever write a staple of Metal, light verse to Heavy Metal chorus(Bringing Love To You) and the first ever Punk Metal song(Rock And Roll Machine) which was also the first song to ever have a true Shredding guitar solo. Triumph also goes down in history as the first ever true Metal band of any kind to release a complete uninteruppted concept album, that was not only loosely based, that album was Thunder Seven, which I highly reccomend to all of you. Plus Rik Emmett was the main songwriter behind all their ideas. And since what also makes Rik Emmett so amazing is that he has done these genres: Metal Heavy Metal Punk Metal Speed Metal Thrash Metal Opera Country Bluegrass World Jazz(Acid, Smooth, 12-bar, arch-top type, swing, acoustic, bar room) Every form of classical every form of blues there is nothing the man is unable to do

If you wish to put them in 'Hard Rock' than that is your wish but I've said it before and I'll say it yet again that I for one fail to see the difference. Back in the 1970's and 80's, Black Sabbath was, just like nowadays, a Heavy Metal band, yet they were originally called just HARD ROCK.

So in the simplest of terms Hard Rock IS Metal, it may not be Heavy, Death, Speed, Viking, Folk, Pain, Thrash, Brutal, Black or any other bastardized sub-genre or shoot off, but it IS most definately METAL .

Besides, how can ANYONE say this is NOT Metal?

Listen to around 2:22, and name me one guitarist who was playing those type of solos in 1972?
If you cannot hear 'Eruption', 'D.O.A.', 'Hell Bent For Leather', 'Call For The Priest', 'Symptom Of The Universe', 'For The Love Of God', 'Ice 9', 'Mr. Crowley' in that(just to name a few), or at least where the influence came from. Then you need an enormous crash course on a history lesson.

		ronhartsell wrote:
		Very well put...but I personally put Triumph in the Hard Rock category rather than Metal!!      Luvers666 wrote:   I think it is sad that only a totalof six mentions of Rik Emmett was done on all 27 pages of this topic. I began listening to Triumph and Judas Priest the same year, 1978, and they both are tied on several things. But in terms of ability and influence, rather directly or indirectly, no Metal guitarist is better than Mr. Rik Emmett. All kinds of guitar players you all mentioned have claimed to be influenced by the man, for instance: Steve Vai - Started playing eclectic guitar because of Rik Emmett Joe Satriani - Started playing guitar period because of Rik Emmett Eddie Van Halen - Admitted taking the ideas that are featured on Eruption and Mean Street after watching Rik Emmett(Triumph) play a gig in Canada in 1975, when Van Halen was still called Mammoth Glenn Tipton - Wrote the Hell Bent For Leather and Call For The Priest solo after listening to Rock And Roll Machine Dave Murray - Decided to take the punk sounding guitars used by Rik Emmett on Triumph's first two albums, one being Rock And Roll Machine Randy Rhoads - Found a love for Classical because of Rik Emmett, his two favorite classical pieces are: El Duende Agonizante and Fantasy Serenade. In 1972 Rik Emmett was in a band called Act III, which was the first time an audience ever got to hear the song Blinding Light Show, which features both shredding on a 12 string classical and 12-string electric, without a break. And the following year Tony Iommi and Black Sabbath recorded Spiral Architect which throughout the song features the same exact rhythm section. Triumph was the first metal band to ever feature Jazz, Classical, Bluegrass, Waltz, Spanish Flamenco techniques or complete songs. Not to mention their ability to pend songs that were commercial yet heavy, makes them either the inventors or the biggest influence on starting the Glam Metal scene, which rather you like it or not, was a good and lucrative sub genre of Heavy Metal. They were also the first to write a Speed Metal song(Street Fighter Man) while the first to ever write a staple of Metal, light verse to Heavy Metal chorus(Bringing Love To You) and the first ever Punk Metal song(Rock And Roll Machine) which was also the first song to ever have a true Shredding guitar solo. Triumph also goes down in history as the first ever true Metal band of any kind to release a complete uninteruppted concept album, that was not only loosely based, that album was Thunder Seven, which I highly reccomend to all of you. Plus Rik Emmett was the main songwriter behind all their ideas. And since what also makes Rik Emmett so amazing is that he has done these genres: Metal Heavy Metal Punk Metal Speed Metal Thrash Metal Opera Country Bluegrass World Jazz(Acid, Smooth, 12-bar, arch-top type, swing, acoustic, bar room) Every form of classical every form of blues there is nothing the man is unable to do

I think it is sad that only a totalof six mentions of Rik Emmett was done on all 27 pages of this topic. I began listening to Triumph and Judas Priest the same year, 1978, and they both are tied on several things.

But in terms of ability and influence, rather directly or indirectly, no Metal guitarist is better than Mr. Rik Emmett. All kinds of guitar players you all mentioned have claimed to be influenced by the man, for instance:

Steve Vai - Started playing eclectic guitar because of Rik Emmett
Joe Satriani - Started playing guitar period because of Rik Emmett
Eddie Van Halen - Admitted taking the ideas that are featured on Eruption and Mean Street after watching Rik Emmett(Triumph) play a gig in Canada in 1975, when Van Halen was still called Mammoth
Glenn Tipton - Wrote the Hell Bent For Leather and Call For The Priest solo after listening to Rock And Roll Machine
Dave Murray - Decided to take the punk sounding guitars used by Rik Emmett on Triumph's first two albums, one being Rock And Roll Machine
Randy Rhoads - Found a love for Classical because of Rik Emmett, his two favorite classical pieces are: El Duende Agonizante and Fantasy Serenade.

In 1972 Rik Emmett was in a band called Act III, which was the first time an audience ever got to hear the song Blinding Light Show, which features both shredding on a 12 string classical and 12-string electric, without a break. And the following year Tony Iommi and Black Sabbath recorded Spiral Architect which throughout the song features the same exact rhythm section.

Triumph was the first metal band to ever feature Jazz, Classical, Bluegrass, Waltz, Spanish Flamenco techniques or complete songs. Not to mention their ability to pend songs that were commercial yet heavy, makes them either the inventors or the biggest influence on starting the Glam Metal scene, which rather you like it or not, was a good and lucrative sub genre of Heavy Metal. They were also the first to write a Speed Metal song(Street Fighter Man) while the first to ever write a staple of Metal, light verse to Heavy Metal chorus(Bringing Love To You) and the first ever Punk Metal song(Rock And Roll Machine) which was also the first song to ever have a true Shredding guitar solo.

Triumph also goes down in history as the first ever true Metal band of any kind to release a complete uninteruppted concept album, that was not only loosely based, that album was Thunder Seven, which I highly reccomend to all of you. Plus Rik Emmett was the main songwriter behind all their ideas.

And since what also makes Rik Emmett so amazing is that he has done these genres:

Metal
Heavy Metal
Punk Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal
Opera
Country
Bluegrass
World
Jazz(Acid, Smooth, 12-bar, arch-top type, swing, acoustic, bar room)
Every form of classical
every form of blues

there is nothing the man is unable to do

I think it is sad that only a totalof six mentions of Rik Emmett was done on all 27 pages of this topic. I began listening to Triumph and Judas Priest the same year, 1978, and they both are tied on several things.

But in terms of ability and influence, rather directly or indirectly, no Metal guitarist is better than Mr. Rik Emmett. All kinds of guitar players you all mentioned have claimed to be influenced by the man, for instance:

Steve Vai - Started playing eclectic guitar because of Rik Emmett
Joe Satriani - Started playing guitar period because of Rik Emmett
Eddie Van Halen - Admitted taking the ideas that are featured on Eruption and Mean Street after watching Rik Emmett(Triumph) play a gig in Canada in 1975, when Van Halen was still called Mammoth
Glenn Tipton - Wrote the Hell Bent For Leather and Call For The Priest solo after listening to Rock And Roll Machine
Dave Murray - Decided to take the punk sounding guitars used by Rik Emmett on Triumph's first two albums, one being Rock And Roll Machine
Randy Rhoads - Found a love for Classical because of Rik Emmett, his two favorite classical pieces are: El Duende Agonizante and Fantasy Serenade.

In 1972 Rik Emmett was in a band called Act III, which was the first time an audience ever got to hear the song Blinding Light Show, which features both shredding on a 12 string classical and 12-string electric, without a break. And the following year Tony Iommi and Black Sabbath recorded Spiral Architect which throughout the song features the same exact rhythm section.

Triumph was the first metal band to ever feature Jazz, Classical, Bluegrass, Waltz, Spanish Flamenco techniques or complete songs. Not to mention their ability to pend songs that were commercial yet heavy, makes them either the inventors or the biggest influence on starting the Glam Metal scene, which rather you like it or not, was a good and lucrative sub genre of Heavy Metal. They were also the first to write a Speed Metal song(Street Fighter Man) while the first to ever write a staple of Metal, light verse to Heavy Metal chorus(Bringing Love To You) and the first ever Punk Metal song(Rock And Roll Machine) which was also the first song to ever have a true Shredding guitar solo.

Triumph also goes down in history as the first ever true Metal band of any kind to release a complete uninteruppted concept album, that was not only loosely based, that album was Thunder Seven, which I highly reccomend to all of you. Plus Rik Emmett was the main songwriter behind all their ideas.

And since what also makes Rik Emmett so amazing is that he has done these genres:

Metal
Heavy Metal
Punk Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal
Opera
Country
Bluegrass
World
Jazz(Acid, Smooth, 12-bar, arch-top type, swing, acoustic, bar room)
Every form of classical
every form of blues

there is nothing the man is unable to do

I think it is sad that only a totalof six mentions of Rik Emmett was done on all 27 pages of this topic. I began listening to Triumph and Judas Priest the same year, 1978, and they both are tied on several things.

But in terms of ability and influence, rather directly or indirectly, no Metal guitarist is better than Mr. Rik Emmett. All kinds of guitar players you all mentioned have claimed to be influenced by the man, for instance:

Steve Vai - Started playing eclectic guitar because of Rik Emmett
Joe Satriani - Started playing guitar period because of Rik Emmett
Eddie Van Halen - Admitted taking the ideas that are featured on Eruption and Mean Street after watching Rik Emmett(Triumph) play a gig in Canada in 1975, when Van Halen was still called Mammoth
Glenn Tipton - Wrote the Hell Bent For Leather and Call For The Priest solo after listening to Rock And Roll Machine
Dave Murray - Decided to take the punk sounding guitars used by Rik Emmett on Triumph's first two albums, one being Rock And Roll Machine
Randy Rhoads - Found a love for Classical because of Rik Emmett, his two favorite classical pieces are: El Duende Agonizante and Fantasy Serenade.

In 1972 Rik Emmett was in a band called Act III, which was the first time an audience ever got to hear the song Blinding Light Show, which features both shredding on a 12 string classical and 12-string electric, without a break. And the following year Tony Iommi and Black Sabbath recorded Spiral Architect which throughout the song features the same exact rhythm section.

Triumph was the first metal band to ever feature Jazz, Classical, Bluegrass, Waltz, Spanish Flamenco techniques or complete songs. Not to mention their ability to pend songs that were commercial yet heavy, makes them either the inventors or the biggest influence on starting the Glam Metal scene, which rather you like it or not, was a good and lucrative sub genre of Heavy Metal. They were also the first to write a Speed Metal song(Street Fighter Man) while the first to ever write a staple of Metal, light verse to Heavy Metal chorus(Bringing Love To You) and the first ever Punk Metal song(Rock And Roll Machine) which was also the first song to ever have a true Shredding guitar solo.

Triumph also goes down in history as the first ever true Metal band of any kind to release a complete uninteruppted concept album, that was not only loosely based, that album was Thunder Seven, which I highly reccomend to all of you. Plus Rik Emmett was the main songwriter behind all their ideas.

And since what also makes Rik Emmett so amazing is that he has done these genres:

Metal
Heavy Metal
Punk Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal
Opera
Country
Bluegrass
World
Jazz(Acid, Smooth, 12-bar, arch-top type, swing, acoustic, bar room)
Every form of classical
every form of blues

there is nothing the man is unable to do