Sabbath's Technical Ectasy was a disaster.  They won't play anything off that album.  Never Say Die ('78 - Ozzy's last disc with Sabbath) is really good IMO.  Never Say Die! itself is a rather uplifting track.  The band went and found Dio and put out the classic Heaven & Hell CD - which I think is just as hard and heavy as British Steel and Maiden's debut in 80.  Kiss got sucked into the disco scene and put out Dynasty and Unmasked.  I will give Kiss points for trying to do a concept album.  I think that while Music From "The Elder" could've been a lot better, it's also where Kiss expanded their sound from Hard Rock and made their brief transition to Metal.

		ronhartsell wrote:
		In retrospect probably not, but at the time I think the term 'Acid Rock' would fit??  That's a term you don't hear much these days but was thrown around regularly at the time...again, the lines have blurred through time and I certainly can't argue (and won't) that Sabbath isn't Metal, because they are, I just don't think they started out as what I would call Metal today... ...Metal, as a genre, encompasses all forms of Metal...the Godfathers of Metal would be Sabbath as they were the influence of the Metal Gods themselves, and even though we agree that Zep is not Metal, you can hear their influence in some of Priests early music as well, but they were never Metal, whereas Sabbath, the Dio years, picked up on the musical style of Metal... ...Paranoid, Sweet Leaf, Iron Man and many others definately were the standards at the time, nothing compared to 'em...but the genre was just beginning and throughout most of the 70's Hard Rock picked up steam and that is where it stayed...then Punk made a splash and then Disco came on the scene...where was Sabbath?  Zep?  Kiss?  Maiden wasn't even born yet!!... ...Then came along a little old album called British Steel, gee, what happened next??...      Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote: Ron, do you own Black Sabbath's Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Paranoid or Sabotage CD's?  How about Black Sabbath and Master Of Reality?  These are not particularly progressive (save for certain instances), but rather they are dark, foreboding, and have a certain driving power that most bands still try emulating in the 21st century.  These are definite proof positive that Black Sabbath of the 70's belongs in the Metal category.  Good examples of Prog Rock are King Crimson, Rush, Pink Floyd and Queensryche.  Dream Theater too.  Aside from heavy riffs and such...these bands have zero in common with Judas Priest and Black Sabbath.  It's like trying to compare ZZ Top and the Allman Brothers - the only thing they have in common is that they're from the South.      ronhartsell wrote: Hey there DP...seems we pretty much agree on everything except on Sabbath, and I'm certainly not gonna tell you you're wrong!!!  Of all the bands we've been discussing here lately, Sabbath would be the one band I would give a free pass to and here's why... ...when Sabbath came out they had a sound unlike any other and for a reason well documented (fingertips cut off), if it wasn't for that (?fortunate?) accident, who knows what they would have sounded like, who cares, it happend!!...it was dark, dreary, evil sounding music, and it either scared the sh*t out of you or rocked you... but to me it's more about the lyrics for 70's Sabbath that would give them the edge over other bands, not so much what the music sounded like as compared to Metal as we've grown to know it...now Sabbath of the 80's and on are Metal, not what I would consider progressive rock, which I guess is where I put Sabbath and early Priest in, a Hard/Prog Rock category...for me, I believe it was Priest with their British Steel album to be the very first, front to back Heavy Metal album... DP, I am biased as I'm sure you're very well aware of...if anything, Priest is the band that I measure every other band against, and maybe that's not fair, but it's what works for me...      Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote: Okay, I've been listening to Hard Rock and Metal since I was 9, and I've never heard of any band called The Rods.  Can someone fill me in on who these guys were? I reckon Gary Moore to be an excellent blues-rock guitarist who was very influencial for a lot of the 80's guitar heroes.  I think someone else pointed that out. Ron, if you listen to Black Sabbath's first two CD's...Black Sabbath & Paranoid, don't you think those 2 discs instantly DEFINE Sabbath as a Metal band?  I agree with your sentiment that Priest started out as Rock but transcended to Metal.  I think that change took place with Sad Wings Of Destiny.  Zep never was Metal and should not be considered as such.  What has Led Zeppelin sung that was ever Metal?  The answer: Nothing!  Kiss isn't Metal either, though they have made Metal discs (some Heavy Metal, some Pop/Glam Metal), but they are basically a Hard Rock band.  There is a fine but distinct line in the sand between Hard Rock and Metal.  The evidence of that is rather plain to see I think. Edited at: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:19:16 AM