Umm..perhaps it is better that we don't have "share croppers" running corporations?  HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pointing the finger at Bush is also very chic but also very specious. I do not want to get into the idiocy of the voting public so I will "let sleeping dogs lie", as it were. That our school system is "dismal" has every bit as much to do with the morons kids consider role models as it does poor schools. Yeah, it is "cool" to "pimp" and shoot people and steal cars and sell drugs for money because then you are "real" and "from the streets"....Riiiiiight.   AGAIN, I am only going to start a war by pointing out  the painfully obvious, so it is best to drop that part as well. But, just so we are clear, let me say that George Bush is NOT a "stupid" man. Not by a longshot! You may dislike him or even hate him but he is NOT stupid. On the contrary, he is rather savvy. Smart enough to do what he had to do and use the resources he has available to become the most powerful man on earth...TWICE. HOW he got those resources is irrelevant. He did what he did.

I am probably one of the few that can appreciate the fact that Harvard and the other schools are what you might consider "exclusive". From what I see being produced in our "society" and "school system", I am grateful that they are! There, I've said it. I can hear strat typing now! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

  (Quoting Message by METAL MELTDOWN from Friday, December 19, 2008 12:07:00 PM)

		METAL MELTDOWN wrote:
		No Guido...Yale is actually Yale Skool uf Bitnez Teknoligy in a little town called Loma Alta, TX!!  George Bush rose to where he is now because of dear old dad, his money and his oil.  If he was born to poor share croppers in the middle of no where TX and some who managed to make it to Yale then he would NOT have made it any further, other than maybe landing the CEO gig at Goldman Sachs!!!      guidogodoy wrote:   Man, you guys type a lot! I gotta jump in on that comment of "education." While not a CEO in the strict sense of the word, our beloved President went to FREAKIN' YALE! You think he became co-owner of the Rangers (pretty darn close to a CEO), Governor and Pres because he "applied himself" with hard work and dedication in school? HAAAA!!! No, wait, perhaps it was is exemplary military service. Sorry but your comment about good grades in high school is even more laugabable. You haven't "checked" in a long time as our school systems are in a DISMAL condition. My own state of residence, Tennessee, is just about the worst. I won't even begin to comment on a poor inner-city Detroit school. I guarantee, even if you COULD get a decent education there, you would not get into a top-tier University much less have a fighting chance at a Master of Business degree at Harvard. Nope, you are leaving social class out of the equation. It is not by mere chance that most CEOs (and politicians) are old white men.    (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Friday, December 19, 2008 9:26:39 AM)   Deep Freeze wrote:   OK, so just who is Henry Paulson (Goldman Sachs CEO) ?? Just what did he "do" to get where he is??? HAA!!!!!! Well, to begin with he has a B.A. in English from Dartmouth. (May not sound important enough, but it does help when one needs to communicate clearly) Next , he has a MASTERS degree from HARVARD BUSINESS School. He is a Phi  Beta Kappa AND a Sigma Alpha Epsilon. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon. He has been with Goldman Sach over THIRTY years. He actually WORKED his way up!  He has held high level management positions including Head of Investment Banking AND COO. And I believe he was Secretary of Treasury for the United States. He hasn't accomplished much in his "miserable" life, now has he??? This is just ONE example of "how" one gets to the position of CEO. It is not some half-assed lottery! It is not by "luck". These men earn it with hard work and drive. Period. An unfortunate by-product of such a position is that, when he screws up, it is usually HUGE. (Regardless of if it was even HIM that did it) We see this because the population and the media are so focused on it right now, and rightfully so. But I guess he is not human and not allowed to make mistakes?  Oh, and last time I checked, if you had the grades and actually DID something with your high school life, you have every bit as much of an opportunity to make Harvard as he did. The problem is that the majority of kids jack around in high school instead of working towards the future. It is always SO much easier to blame the "system" than onesself.   Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:31:21 AM Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:58:20 AM

OK, so just who is Henry Paulson (Goldman Sachs CEO) ?? Just what did he "do" to get where he is??? HAA!!!!!!
Well, to begin with he has a B.A. in English from Dartmouth. (May not sound important enough, but it does help when one needs to communicate clearly) Next , he has a MASTERS degree from HARVARD BUSINESS School. He is a Phi  Beta Kappa AND a Sigma Alpha Epsilon. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon. He has been with Goldman Sach over THIRTY years. He actually WORKED his way up!  He has held high level management positions including Head of Investment Banking AND COO. And I believe he was Secretary of Treasury for the United States. He hasn't accomplished much in his "miserable" life, now has he???

This is just ONE example of "how" one gets to the position of CEO. It is not some half-assed lottery! It is not by "luck". These men earn it with hard work and drive. Period. An unfortunate by-product of such a position is that, when he screws up, it is usually HUGE. (Regardless of if it was even HIM that did it) We see this because the population and the media are so focused on it right now, and rightfully so. But I guess he is not human and not allowed to make mistakes?  Oh, and last time I checked, if you had the grades and actually DID something with your high school life, you have every bit as much of an opportunity to make Harvard as he did. The problem is that the majority of kids jack around in high school instead of working towards the future. It is always SO much easier to blame the "system" than onesself.

I am not arguing that they have help, MM. It would only make sense that they do. But these so-called "schmoes" are most often very gifted business leaders in their own right. AGAIN, they do not get THAT position by "luck" either!  And, in the corporate environment, it is absolutely vital that decisions are made via discussion and imput by highly trained professionals. Differing points of view are important when making some of these very big decisions that DO affect tens of thousands of lives and economies! NO doubt.

I have no idea HOW they arrived at a dollar amount for the bonuses you mention. Yes, it sounds incredibly excessive. I am not familiar with the contract so I do not know enough to say much. I am NOT arguing with you that it seems ridiculous. On  the surface, it certainly does. On the other hand, I have NO idea how it was set up. I have seen colleagues get HUGE bonuses in my professional life, man. I have received a few in my lifetime. Are they fair? To ME they were! I was asked to meet a series on goals, I did it and I was paid. Simple as that. That is a big reason that people seek out these positions in the first place. And getting there is not as simple as siging up, as strat might have us believe. I am very proud of the fact that I worked my ass off for YEARS both in school AND on the job to earn what I got. Did I have disappointments? Sure. Did I feel as though I should have got the promotion another guy did? Occasionally. But I did  not complain and accuse the "system" of holding me down. I stayed focused. Kept working towards that goal. DRIVE.

		METAL MELTDOWN wrote:
		I dont think, without re-reading everything here, that anyone is saying you shouldnt be qualified to be a CEO.  I think you are painting a much tougher picture of what they have to go thru on a daily basis.  They have staff and anaylist and a schmoe for this and a schmoe for that.  They cannot run an entire company day to day, especially the size of some of these.   They make decision based on the info presented to them and have to answer for those decisions... You cannot tell me, Freeze that a 68 million dollar bonus, when your company is going down the tubes is a wise business move.  Its wasnt just GS either.  It was all of them.  The issue here is GROSS EXCESS within a corp, namely the top brass.        Deep Freeze wrote:   OK, so just who is Henry Paulson (Goldman Sachs CEO) ?? Just what did he "do" to get where he is??? HAA!!!!!! Well, to begin with he has a B.A. in English from Dartmouth. (May not sound important enough, but it does help when one needs to communicate clearly) Next , he has a MASTERS degree from HARVARD BUSINESS School. He is a Phi  Beta Kappa AND a Sigma Alpha Epsilon. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon. He has been with Goldman Sach over THIRTY years. He actually WORKED his way up!  He has held high level management positions including Head of Investment Banking AND COO. And I believe he was Secretary of Treasury for the United States. He hasn't accomplished much in his "miserable" life, now has he??? This is just ONE example of "how" one gets to the position of CEO. It is not some half-assed lottery! It is not by "luck". These men earn it with hard work and drive. Period. An unfortunate by-product of such a position is that, when he screws up, it is usually HUGE. (Regardless of if it was even HIM that did it) We see this because the population and the media are so focused on it right now, and rightfully so. But I guess he is not human and not allowed to make mistakes?  Oh, and last time I checked, if you had the grades and actually DID something with your high school life, you have every bit as much of an opportunity to make Harvard as he did. The problem is that the majority of kids jack around in high school instead of working towards the future. It is always SO much easier to blame the "system" than onesself.   Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:31:21 AM

I am not arguing that they have help, MM. It would only make sense that they do. But these so-called "schmoes" are most often very gifted business leaders in their own right. AGAIN, they do not get THAT position by "luck" either!  And, in the corporate environment, it is absolutely vital that decisions are made via discussion and imput by highly trained professionals. Differing points of view are important when making some of these very big decisions that DO affect tens of thousands of lives and economies! NO doubt.

I have no idea HOW they arrived at a dollar amount for the bonuses you mention. Yes, it sounds incredibly excessive. I am not familiar with the contract so I do not know enough to say much. I am NOT arguing with you that it seems ridiculous. On  the surface, it certainly does. On the other hand, I have NO idea how it was set up. I have seen colleagues get HUGE bonuses in my professional life, man. I have received a few in my lifetime. Are they fair? To ME they were! I was asked to meet a series on goals, I did it and I was paid. Simple as that. That is a big reason that people seek out these positions in the first place. And getting there is not as simple as siging up, as strat might have us believe. I am very proud of the fact that I worked my ass off for YEARS both in school AND on the job to earn what I got. Did I have disappointments? Sure. Did I feel as though I should have got the promotion another guy did? Occasionally. But I did  not complain and accuse the "system" of holding me down. I stayed focused. Kept working towards that goal. DRIVE.

		METAL MELTDOWN wrote:
		I dont think, without re-reading everything here, that anyone is saying you shouldnt be qualified to be a CEO.  I think you are painting a much tougher picture of what they have to go thru on a daily basis.  They have staff and anaylist and a schmoe for this and a schmoe for that.  They cannot run an entire company day to day, especially the size of some of these.   They make decision based on the info presented to them and have to answer for those decisions... You cannot tell me, Freeze that a 68 million dollar bonus, when your company is going down the tubes is a wise business move.  Its wasnt just GS either.  It was all of them.  The issue here is GROSS EXCESS within a corp, namely the top brass.        Deep Freeze wrote:   OK, so just who is Henry Paulson (Goldman Sachs CEO) ?? Just what did he "do" to get where he is??? HAA!!!!!! Well, to begin with he has a B.A. in English from Dartmouth. (May not sound important enough, but it does help when one needs to communicate clearly) Next , he has a MASTERS degree from HARVARD BUSINESS School. He is a Phi  Beta Kappa AND a Sigma Alpha Epsilon. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon. He has been with Goldman Sach over THIRTY years. He actually WORKED his way up!  He has held high level management positions including Head of Investment Banking AND COO. And I believe he was Secretary of Treasury for the United States. He hasn't accomplished much in his "miserable" life, now has he??? This is just ONE example of "how" one gets to the position of CEO. It is not some half-assed lottery! It is not by "luck". These men earn it with hard work and drive. Period. An unfortunate by-product of such a position is that, when he screws up, it is usually HUGE. (Regardless of if it was even HIM that did it) We see this because the population and the media are so focused on it right now, and rightfully so. But I guess he is not human and not allowed to make mistakes?  Oh, and last time I checked, if you had the grades and actually DID something with your high school life, you have every bit as much of an opportunity to make Harvard as he did. The problem is that the majority of kids jack around in high school instead of working towards the future. It is always SO much easier to blame the "system" than onesself.   Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:31:21 AM

OK, so just who is Henry Paulson (Goldman Sachs CEO) ?? Just what did he "do" to get where he is??? HAA!!!!!!
Well, to begin with he has a B.A. in English from Dartmouth. (May not sound important enough, but it does help when one needs to communicate clearly) Next , he has a MASTERS degree from HARVARD BUSINESS School. He is a Phi  Beta Kappa AND a Sigma Alpha Epsilon. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon. He has been with Goldman Sach over THIRTY years. He actually WORKED his way up!  He has held high level management positions including Head of Investment Banking AND COO. And I believe he was Secretary of Treasury for the United States. He hasn't accomplished much in his "miserable" life, now has he???

This is just ONE example of "how" one gets to the position of CEO. It is not some half-assed lottery! It is not by "luck". These men earn it with hard work and drive. Period. An unfortunate by-product of such a position is that, when he screws up, it is usually HUGE. (Regardless of if it was even HIM that did it) We see this because the population and the media are so focused on it right now, and rightfully so. But I guess he is not human and not allowed to make mistakes?  Oh, and last time I checked, if you had the grades and actually DID something with your high school life, you have every bit as much of an opportunity to make Harvard as he did. The problem is that the majority of kids jack around in high school instead of working towards the future. It is always SO much easier to blame the "system" than onesself.

The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.

MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.

Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more. 

The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.

These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.

And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.

All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.


Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.

		Deep Freeze wrote:
		Very well. I look forward to your response! It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really.  I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh* To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues;  personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!! The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension. It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron. As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!

The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.

MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.

Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more. 

The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.

These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.

And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.

All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.


Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.

		Deep Freeze wrote:
		Very well. I look forward to your response! It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really.  I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh* To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues;  personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!! The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension. It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron. As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!

For Dow Kim, 2006 was a very good year. While his salary at Merrill Lynch was $350,000, his total compensation was 100 times that — $35 million.

The difference between the two amounts was his bonus, a rich reward for the robust earnings made by the traders he oversaw in Merrill’s mortgage business.

Mr. Kim’s colleagues, not only at his level, but far down the ranks, also pocketed large paychecks. In all, Merrill handed out $5 billion to $6 billion in bonuses that year. A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 collected a bonus of $250,000. And a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million.

Those are not even CEO'S....

This is from a dec 07 CNN article......

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Goldman Sachs Chairman and CEO Lloyd Blankfein will take home nearly $68 million in restricted stock, options and cash, making it the largest bonus ever given to a Wall Street CEO.

Blankfein was awarded $26.8 million in cash and $41.1 million in restricted stock and stock options, according to a company filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission issued Friday.

Goldman Sachs reported a 2.2 BILLION dollar loss this year!!!  Nearly 1/4 of that went to this FUCKS bonuses last year!!  Not all CEO'S are pieces of shit Freeze but this clown and those that hang with him on Wall Street and those Running the Auto Industry ARE.  Unfortunatly its these industries that is part of the Fucking of America right now.  I wanted to toss my cookies when those clowns from the "BIG 3" all flew to DC in individual private JETS to ask congress for BAIL OUT MONEY.......

		Deep Freeze wrote:
		OK, let's address the comments. First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all? Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no? Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do.  They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive. I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.      _strat_ wrote: The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet. MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us. Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.  The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible. These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs. And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there. All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation. Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.      Deep Freeze wrote: Very well. I look forward to your response! It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really.  I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh* To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues;  personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!! The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension. It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron. As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!

The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.

MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.

Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more. 

The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.

These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.

And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.

All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.


Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.

		Deep Freeze wrote:
		Very well. I look forward to your response! It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really.  I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh* To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues;  personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!! The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension. It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron. As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!