|[flashrockinman] Monday, January 26, 2009 10:36:36 PM|| |
ok, another band with another story. there first 4 albums, or 8 tracks. where hard. then the next two where alittle hard, you could tell they where going a different direction with their music. than instead of going back to their roots, they went commerical. they got progressive. they are still a ok band, but what if they started playing metal. this band you can guess RUSH they are rockers but to me there just rush. dare to be different. some of their ablums really suck too. to bad. (also have memories it the back seat of an oldsmoble delta 88 with all worlds astage blasting)
|[ron h] Monday, January 26, 2009 6:22:52 PM|| |
|Hey there DP...seems we pretty much agree on everything except on Sabbath, and I'm certainly not gonna tell you you're wrong!!! Of all the bands we've been discussing here lately, Sabbath would be the one band I would give a free pass to and here's why...|
...when Sabbath came out they had a sound unlike any other and for a reason well documented (fingertips cut off), if it wasn't for that (?fortunate?) accident, who knows what they would have sounded like, who cares, it happend!!...it was dark, dreary, evil sounding music, and it either scared the sh*t out of you or rocked you... but to me it's more about the lyrics for 70's Sabbath that would give them the edge over other bands, not so much what the music sounded like as compared to Metal as we've grown to know it...now Sabbath of the 80's and on are Metal, not what I would consider progressive rock, which I guess is where I put Sabbath and early Priest in, a Hard/Prog Rock category...for me, I believe it was Priest with their British Steel album to be the very first, front to back Heavy Metal album...
DP, I am biased as I'm sure you're very well aware of...if anything, Priest is the band that I measure every other band against, and maybe that's not fair, but it's what works for me...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Darth_Painkiller_0870 from Monday, January 26, 2009 5:10:04 AM)
|[guitardude] Monday, January 26, 2009 4:30:54 PM|| |
|Cerwin-Vegas, Sparkomatics...OMG!! Now that caused a serious flashback!!!!|
Wild Dogs had a song called "Rockin and Rollin" that song has such a driving guitar riff, I can still hear it in my head. And I haven`t actually heard the thing in over two decades!!! Power Lover holds a fond memory for me. My girlfriend at the time , was a rocker chick, when she heard Power Lover for the first time, she tried to hurt me!! No pun intended, that song pumped her up so much!!!....... Let`s see , what was her number again?
Edited at: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:32:28 PM
|[flashrockinman] Monday, January 26, 2009 3:49:29 PM|| |
|oh yes.......... the rods............they are a spin off . feinstein was a member of a band called elf second album (last ablum) the band broke up. of course the lead singer of elf was dio. you know his story. the rods music is on utube. you should start off on power lover. the wild dogs album is an import now, good luck finding that one. let them eat metal , i didn't think that abum was that great. feinstein also has some solo stuff out there also. so crank you cerwin vegas , or sparkomatics, what ever you got , and rock hard. flash|
|[Return_of_Darth_Painkiller_0870] Monday, January 26, 2009 2:45:58 PM|| |
I don't mean to get your britches all twisted with my lack of more comprehensive knowledge of Triumph. They don't get any airplay in Philadelphia, and the most I've heard are the aforementioned songs from my satellite radio subscription.
As for the difference between Hard Rock and Metal....How is that difficult? I agree that VH is not and never was Metal, but everyone is different and has different perceptions.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Luvers666 from Monday, January 26, 2009 10:26:58 AM)
|[Luvers666] Monday, January 26, 2009 10:26:58 AM|| |
|I fail to see the difference between HARD ROCK and METAL. Now Heavy Metal has an identity all it's own, there are elements to it that you can find in no other genre, same with Death Metal, Country, Disco, Opera. But regular Metal and HARD ROCK or HEAVY Rock is the same thing. Pioneering Heavy Metal bands that we call that nowadays was referred as Hard Rock until the 1980's. I mean the first time I ever heard a band called Heavy Metal was Van Halen, in 1982 and that was by a fan, who I would not lump into the genre.|
As far as Triumph goes, the band themselves have stated hundreds of times that they never threw themselves into the genre because they didn't want to be categorized, since they felt it limited what a band could do. Mike Levine even once said they were a band who belongs in the "Music Genre". It is also hard to place them in Metal because the majority of their songs are more upbeat and are about inspiration, but that is only to those who believe they have 'Three Weak Ass Songs'. Triumph's first two albums feature topics like Murder, Drug Lords, Smuggling, Torture, Prostituion, Destruction, Partying, Domestic Violence, Abuse.
And what else is funny is when Triumph introduced the idea of complete CONCEPT ALBUM in the Metal genre, they did the one thing that no one this side of the Who and Savatage ever did, they actually made their lone concept album a story about the future. If you listen to the bands seventh album, THUNDER SEVEN, it describes in grave detail the way the world would exist in the 21st century, with the age of machines, technology and the loss of humanity. The superb thing is it was recorded in 1984, sixteen years before the time period they wrote about began. Maybe Judas Priest should have written a concept album about their prophecy, at least theirs is undisputable.
|[Return_of_Darth_Painkiller_0870] Monday, January 26, 2009 5:10:04 AM|| |
|Okay, I've been listening to Hard Rock and Metal since I was 9, and I've never heard of any band called The Rods. Can someone fill me in on who these guys were?|
I reckon Gary Moore to be an excellent blues-rock guitarist who was very influencial for a lot of the 80's guitar heroes. I think someone else pointed that out.
Ron, if you listen to Black Sabbath's first two CD's...Black Sabbath & Paranoid, don't you think those 2 discs instantly DEFINE Sabbath as a Metal band? I agree with your sentiment that Priest started out as Rock but transcended to Metal. I think that change took place with Sad Wings Of Destiny. Zep never was Metal and should not be considered as such. What has Led Zeppelin sung that was ever Metal? The answer: Nothing! Kiss isn't Metal either, though they have made Metal discs (some Heavy Metal, some Pop/Glam Metal), but they are basically a Hard Rock band. There is a fine but distinct line in the sand between Hard Rock and Metal. The evidence of that is rather plain to see I think.
Edited at: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:19:16 AM
|[ron h] Monday, January 26, 2009 4:49:28 AM|| |
|I believe I've heard the rumblings of the Rods possibly putting some new material out...ahhh, the Ramones, one of my favorites of all time, RIP, fortunately their music is timeless, the very first song my daughter danced to was 'Beat On The Brat', it was cute and funny...I think we all have a tough time with a lot of the opening acts of today, there's nothing to the music anymore (IMHO)...Ok, I've got to get out of the good 'ol days or I'll be for sh#t at work today...Ron|
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by flashrockinman from Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:24:42 PM)
|[flashrockinman] Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:24:42 PM|| |
|ok,ok i'm showing my age. being that my first concert was queen, moving pictures tour rush, mod rules tour sabbath, pt. of entry dah priest. killers maiden , allied forces triumph straight between the eye,s rainbow blackout tour scorpions, saxon, rods,alvin lee,..............even ramones and that was the college years, in up-state ny. i do like my rock, i went to a corn concert this past year..........the warm up bands all sucked. i really do miss the the old school bands,. i hear the rods are back together. if the come home to cortland i'll be there. i think they are overseas now. like to hear the feedback flash|
|[guitardude] Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:49:13 PM|| |
|The Rods opened for Priest on the SRV tour along with Krokus. At least on the leg I witnessed. The Rods kicked some serious ass!!|
David Feinstein (Rods guitarist) had a very thick sound and for a 3 piesce band they were very heavy.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:21:39 AM)
|[ron h] Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:21:39 AM|| |
|Wow Flash, you're really going waaaaay back on this...|
...Alvin Lee can and HAS played everything from Rock to Swing music...he is one of the most talented musicians ever, but I agree with not being Metal...
...The Rods are Metal for sure, and if I remember right, did't they open for Priest at one one time??...
...Gary Moore is an interesting creature, he has done it all at one time or another and he has influenced many other players such as Randy Rhodes and Kirk Hammet, as well as collaborated with artists such as Ozzy and the Beach Boys, I think he's generally known as a Blues-Rock musician who can do it all!!!...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by flashrockinman from Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:50:38 PM)
|[flashrockinman] Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:50:38 PM|| |
|yes this thing they call metal? the rods, metal of course. I like the topic metal or not metal. what about alvin lee? this man can jam. period. he's been around since woodstock. but i consider him hard rock, not metal. gary moore? another jammer he'll blow you away. 1982 dirty fingers. is he metal you tell me. psss. a hint i say metal|
|[ron h] Saturday, January 24, 2009 7:21:53 PM|| |
|I suppose it would be harder for me to differentiate between the 2 if I hadn't been around in that era...to witness the evolution first hand...what I know as Hard Rock from back in the day IS different than what is today considered Hard Rock...same for Metal, some bands considered Metal NOW were at one time Hard Rock...it can be confusing, I think a lot of it is a generational type thing...to me, the differences are like night and day...and you have to consider the entire package of a band in order to categorize them...no doubt Triumph had an edge to them...bands like Priest and Sabbath happened to jump over the edge...what I tell ppl is to listen to British Steel and ANY album of the aforementioned bands back-to-back...the differences you here and feel are the differences between Hard Rock and Metal...bottom line is they ALL rock regardless!!|
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guitardude from Saturday, January 24, 2009 6:47:22 PM)
|[guitardude] Saturday, January 24, 2009 6:47:22 PM|| |
|Well said Ron|
It`s an evolution thing for sure with many bands. Triumph, had their edge, and like I said before, would be considered a metal band now. But to differentiate(?) between hard rock and metal is a fine line without a doubt.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:29:32 PM)
|[guidogodoy] Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:46:32 PM|| |
|[ron h] Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:29:32 PM|| |
|I am not trying to start a Holy War on what is or is not Metal...instead I will give you how I differentiate between the two (albeit difficult to put into words)...|
...Rock music in the late 60's and most of the 70's I consider to be Hard Rock as a precursor to Metal...bands that were on the verge of Metal, but hadn't quite taken the leap (early Priest being in this group). Granted, some of this early music tries really hard to claim the Metal tag for reasons such as dark lyrics and such (Sabbath and Zep being prime examples of this), but just because a band influences another band and that band transcends into another category doesn't mean that the original band gets to claim the 'new' genre as their own style, just the influence of...
...at any rate, bands like Triumph, Bad Company, Foriegner, Foghat and even KISS are all GREAT bands, they are influences (among many others) to what I consider Metal...
...Metal to me has it's own feel, a look, it's own presence if you will...it's music you can 'bang you're head' to (although not limited to just that)...it's a rush of adrenalin that I can't find in any other form of music, although some 'classical' can come close...
...now, there are bands that started out as Hard Rock and eventually morphed into Metal, I consider Sabbath and Priest to fall into this category, but I'm of the opinion that Priest made that transition BEFORE Sabbath (and some others) did...but a band like Triumph, for whatever their reasons, never did...
...this is all my opinion and I'm not trying to claim I'm right and you're wrong or any other non-sense...I respect your opinion!!!...I'm just trying to explain to you mine.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Luvers666 from Friday, January 23, 2009 10:03:41 AM)
|[Luvers666] Saturday, January 24, 2009 11:23:02 AM|| |
|I am also surprised no one mentioned Ronnie Montrose or Criss Oliva. Ronnie was superb in pioneering a lot of sound while Criss Oliva was the central figure for what proved to be the band that laid the ground work of all Death Metal bands to follow.|
|[guitardude] Friday, January 23, 2009 11:04:02 AM|| |
|Here`s my take on Triumph being a metal band. Yes, I believe they fit here. Back when they were selling out arenas, metal was an underground music that evolved into what it is today. If Triumph were still around, then yes, they would have evolved into a metal band. With technology running it`s course in the guitar world, it would have been inevitable.|
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Friday, January 23, 2009 8:13:34 AM)
|[Luvers666] Friday, January 23, 2009 10:03:41 AM|| |
If you wish to put them in 'Hard Rock' than that is your wish but I've said it before and I'll say it yet again that I for one fail to see the difference. Back in the 1970's and 80's, Black Sabbath was, just like nowadays, a Heavy Metal band, yet they were originally called just HARD ROCK.
So in the simplest of terms Hard Rock IS Metal, it may not be Heavy, Death, Speed, Viking, Folk, Pain, Thrash, Brutal, Black or any other bastardized sub-genre or shoot off, but it IS most definately METAL .
Besides, how can ANYONE say this is NOT Metal?
Listen to around 2:22, and name me one guitarist who was playing those type of solos in 1972?
If you cannot hear 'Eruption', 'D.O.A.', 'Hell Bent For Leather', 'Call For The Priest', 'Symptom Of The Universe', 'For The Love Of God', 'Ice 9', 'Mr. Crowley' in that(just to name a few), or at least where the influence came from. Then you need an enormous crash course on a history lesson.
|Very well put...but I personally put Triumph in the Hard Rock category rather than Metal!!
I think it is sad that only a totalof six mentions of Rik Emmett was done on all 27 pages of this topic. I began listening to Triumph and Judas Priest the same year, 1978, and they both are tied on several things.
But in terms of ability and influence, rather directly or indirectly, no Metal guitarist is better than Mr. Rik Emmett. All kinds of guitar players you all mentioned have claimed to be influenced by the man, for instance:
Steve Vai - Started playing eclectic guitar because of Rik Emmett
Joe Satriani - Started playing guitar period because of Rik Emmett
Eddie Van Halen - Admitted taking the ideas that are featured on Eruption and Mean Street after watching Rik Emmett(Triumph) play a gig in Canada in 1975, when Van Halen was still called Mammoth
Glenn Tipton - Wrote the Hell Bent For Leather and Call For The Priest solo after listening to Rock And Roll Machine
Dave Murray - Decided to take the punk sounding guitars used by Rik Emmett on Triumph's first two albums, one being Rock And Roll Machine
Randy Rhoads - Found a love for Classical because of Rik Emmett, his two favorite classical pieces are: El Duende Agonizante and Fantasy Serenade.
In 1972 Rik Emmett was in a band called Act III, which was the first time an audience ever got to hear the song Blinding Light Show, which features both shredding on a 12 string classical and 12-string electric, without a break. And the following year Tony Iommi and Black Sabbath recorded Spiral Architect which throughout the song features the same exact rhythm section.
Triumph was the first metal band to ever feature Jazz, Classical, Bluegrass, Waltz, Spanish Flamenco techniques or complete songs. Not to mention their ability to pend songs that were commercial yet heavy, makes them either the inventors or the biggest influence on starting the Glam Metal scene, which rather you like it or not, was a good and lucrative sub genre of Heavy Metal. They were also the first to write a Speed Metal song(Street Fighter Man) while the first to ever write a staple of Metal, light verse to Heavy Metal chorus(Bringing Love To You) and the first ever Punk Metal song(Rock And Roll Machine) which was also the first song to ever have a true Shredding guitar solo.
Triumph also goes down in history as the first ever true Metal band of any kind to release a complete uninteruppted concept album, that was not only loosely based, that album was Thunder Seven, which I highly reccomend to all of you. Plus Rik Emmett was the main songwriter behind all their ideas.
And since what also makes Rik Emmett so amazing is that he has done these genres:
Jazz(Acid, Smooth, 12-bar, arch-top type, swing, acoustic, bar room)
Every form of classical
every form of blues
there is nothing the man is unable to do
Edited at: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:11:25 AM
|[ron h] Friday, January 23, 2009 8:13:34 AM|| |
|Very well put...but I personally put Triumph in the Hard Rock category rather than Metal!!|
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Luvers666 from Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:52:26 AM)